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洗桐女史 2007-02-27 14:48

经白菜查资料证实的苏麻喇姑画像

以下是英文说明,只说是皇后的侍女,麻烦大白查一下内部的资料库,看看有没有详细的说明,是不是苏麻喇姑啊? 

(补充说明:经过大白证实,确实是苏麻喇蛄!)

Portrait of a Lady-in-Waiting to Empress

1644-1911

Qing dynasty

Ink and colors on silk

H: 188.9 W: 98.4 cm

China

Purchase -- Smithsonian Collections Acquisition Program, and partial gift of Richard G. Pritzlaff, S1991.7

 






toutou 2007-02-27 17:55
好狰狞啊!应该不会是一般的侍女吧,不是25岁就回家嫁人了么,这位姐姐不会二十五岁以下吧。不过西方人侍女的概念和咱们不同啊,人家都是贵族小姐、太太入侍宫廷,他这里会不会也说的是某八旗贵妇呢,看着衣着不俗的样子

水晶儿 2007-02-27 19:54
给人一种很精明的感觉,这个……难道真是苏墨尔吗?

千里之外 2007-02-27 19:58
真希望苏姐姐不是这个样子的~~~

大白菜 2007-02-27 23:03


看来白菜要伤大家的心了,答案是:yes.

洗桐女史 2007-02-27 23:06

真的么,真的啊,我真是慧眼如炬啊!!啊啊啊啊啊啊!!!大家给我点奖励吧!!!

我把帖子题目编辑下,哈哈!看我这眼神,那么说,我怀疑是八和八福金,佟佳或和妃的画像也有可能被我猜对喽,哈哈

我发现看到某事物的第一眼的感觉往往很准确呢,呵呵,直觉。




洗桐女史 2007-02-28 01:33
青椒说,蜜腊一、珊瑚二,这是皇贵妃的等级。 可我们手边没有《大清五朝会典》(《康熙会典》、《雍正会典》、《乾隆会典》、《嘉庆会典》、《光绪会典》)啊,有些规定是经过反复更改的,比如十三的棺材,在雍正朝可以称作金棺,乾隆朝不就不可以了么,要是有《康熙会典》可以看下,这个到底属于什么等级的穿着。苏麻喇是按照嫔礼下葬的,不知道她的这个穿着,是不是当时的嫔的装束。

大白菜 2007-02-28 11:30
 这位怎么能是皇贵妃呢?我想青椒记错了。

《乾隆会典》规定皇贵妃的领约是红珊瑚的(与苏茉尔同时代的孝庄画像就是戴红珊瑚领约)。而这位不是,领约蓝色的部分那是青金石。她身上的采帨没花纹不说,那龙才四个爪子。这位连嫔妃都不是(皇子福晋还五个爪子呢)。

清初真是春秋间天气——乱穿衣,哈哈。苏麻喇还真能往身上披挂。
   

顿督 2007-02-28 12:03

奇怪他只是一个侍女,怎么穿着皇后的衣服呢?

我觉得肯定不是她,我们要注意啊她下葬的时候是以嫔礼下葬的。



洗桐女史 2007-02-28 12:17
请楼上注意本帖10楼的回复。另,据内部资料,这副画像有标签注明,确实是苏麻喇蛄无疑。

水水的猪猪 2007-02-28 15:55
耶?侍女??侍女能穿成这样??看着好华丽啊!!

洗桐女史 2007-02-28 23:36

确实是真的,内部资料库写的就是sumalagu(苏麻喇姑的注音还可作sumalaku),史密斯基金会比较严谨的,如果仅仅是怀疑,他们会说可能是某某人,比如这一张:http://www.ourjg.com/bbs/dispbbs.asp?boardID=29&ID=3663&page=1,外部资料库标注的就是“ possibly the Wife of Dorgun”,而内部的资料上也没有证实。但是这张苏麻喇姑的画像内部的资料库确定标注了,这就证明画像有供奉的标签,才会这么写的。呵呵,人家不会乱写,信口开河的,而且他们给出的图片都是自己的馆藏。

下面就是外国人对于苏麻喇姑的生平简介,白菜给的,她忘记贴了,我就代劳了吧,谢谢白菜,亲

Sumalagu was a palace attendant who was a close confidante to the Grand Dowager Empress Xiaozhuang during the reign of Emperor Shun Zhi.

Sumalagu taught Emperor Kang Xi his Manchu while he was under her care. Later on, she was given the responsibility of looking after his son Prince Yin Tao.



魔力神眼 2007-03-01 23:37

第一眼看这幅画容易产生凶恶的感觉。可是魔力多看了两眼,发现苏麻可能不是纯粹的蒙古族人,而可能是生活在贝加尔湖一带的鞑靼人的后裔。用今天话讲,可能是与原苏联某个XX斯坦国的人同族。

因为蒙古曾经在那些地方驰骋纵横,烧杀掠夺。苏麻喇也算是孝庄家的女奴,被孝庄带进皇宫。



大白菜 2007-03-02 03:02
不是没有可能的,庄奶奶姓孛尔只斤,是成吉思汗和忽必烈汗的后代,当初蒙古四大汗国其中的钦察汗国不还都在高加索山脉和里海之间么。他们家估计棕色,金色头发毛的奴隶也会有。元朝丞相唐其势就是钦察色目(他那有色眼珠儿的妹妹还是皇后伯伍牙)呢,死俄国鬼子,那个时候就来祸害我们汉人了,哈哈。

说苏嘛剌是外蒙人,是原苏联的那些xx斯坦国人,都不是没有可能。

吉安 2007-03-02 17:58
以下是引用洗桐女史在2007-02-28 23:36:16的发言:

Sumalagu taught Emperor Kang Xi his Manchu while he was under her care. Later on, she was given the responsibility of looking after his son Prince Yin Tao.


!!原来苏姐姐抚养着十二??

从画像上看,苏姐姐果然说不上温柔,但很精明强干的样子~


麻卜布丁 2007-03-02 21:03

是近朱者赤么?看起来很有孝庄的神韵啊,一股很有气势的感觉。看她眉目间的犀利,感觉很像“清朝后宫的协助管理人”……



贲然来思 2007-03-03 04:02
这是苏麻喇姑的名字的蒙古语注音:Somal(读:叟麻哦或者叟马勒)。

引用

!!原来苏姐姐抚养着十二??


是的,胤裪是由这位老奶奶抚育的。

雁格儿 2007-03-03 14:32
天~长得还可以嘛~脸盘比较大,应当是蒙古人的模样吧~~

醉休 2007-03-03 23:53
狰狞吗?我倒觉得她长得还不算难看。

祺玥 2007-03-04 17:52

我也这么认为,没有像其他画像那样突出低眉善目罢了。


bubu 2007-03-04 21:37

好像地位很高的感觉..


贲然来思 2007-03-05 01:29
白菜和桐桐最近在史密斯基金会的网页上获取图片良多,有人质疑这些图片所注资料的真实性,白菜和桐桐对此不负任何责任,稽古右文论坛只负责尽力的为大家收集资料(一如既往地,我们会注明资料来源).对这些肖像画的真伪有疑问的朋友请与史密斯基金会的负责人联系。他们负责采购,鉴定,接受捐献等等博物馆日常工作.您的真知灼见在那里会取得回应.

本版已经多次贴过史密斯基金会官方网的主页:

http://www.si.edu/

史密斯基金会的电子资料库许多北美常青藤大学都与之资源共享,就读美国的各位也可以通过学校的服务器搜索这些资源。

今天周日白菜比较有时间,为方便大家,大致翻译该图在史密斯基金会资料库中的介绍。


Portrait of a Lady-in-Waiting to Empress
一位皇后的侍妇.
1644-1911
1644年至1911年
Qing dynasty
清朝
Ink and colors on silk
丝绢上的墨与色
H: 188.9 W: 98.4 cm
高188.9厘米,宽:98.4cm
China
中国
Purchase -- Smithsonian Collections Acquisition Program, and partial gift of Richard G. Pritzlaff, S1991.7

购买——史密斯藏品收购计划,理查德·G·普利策拉夫非完全捐赠礼物(白菜注:partial,意味部分的,非完全的,普利策拉夫先生也许收取了一定的酬谢)。

The donor believes that this painting was a portrait of Sumalagu the lady in waiting to the Empress Xiaozhuang.

捐赠者(白菜按:即rgp)认为这副画为孝庄皇后的侍女苏麻喇姑.

(苏麻喇姑的资料如上一楼桐桐所录,省略不述.)

(孝庄皇后的资料与苏麻喇的资料与英文维基百科基本相同,略略不录)

(捐献者rgp的资料省略不录,有兴趣的朋友请自行google搜索.)

————————————

学术重在交流,若大家与各大博物馆沟通后,对这些画像的真伪达成共识,请到稽古来与我们分享您的好消息哦~不胜荣幸!!!

贲然来思 2007-03-05 02:23
附:http://www.friendsofmd.org/data/2005report.pdf

2005年巴尔的摩马利兰之友基金会年度财务报告:其中有rpg先生的名字,大家可以通过该基金会与rpg先生本人联系。



附:存于资料库中的一篇关于捐献者rpg的文章,文章来自《古董》杂志2001年8月刊,对他的捐赠过程有兴趣的朋友可以阅读一下。


Chinese portraiture - antiques - Brief Article
Magazine Antiques,  August, 2001  by Allison Eckardt Ledes



A byzantine tale lies behind the current exhibition of ancestral Chinese portraits on view at the Arthur M. Sackler Gallery in Washington, D.C. through September 9. The players are Richard G. Pritzlaff, an uncouth and irascible New Mexican rancher; H. Ross Perot, the outspoken Texas tycoon; Wu Lai-shi, an esteemed and elusive Peking art dealer; and Jan Stuart, the tenacious and intelligent associate curator of Chinese art at the Sackler Gallery. The Maltese falcon in this case was eighty-five hauntingly beautiful Chinese ancestor portraits and related artifacts.

In 1989 Mr. Pritzlaff telephoned the Sackler Gallery pointedly deriding the curatorial profession, but nonetheless offering his collection of more than one hundred paintings and other objects to the museum. He described the collection immodestly as one that would "forever change American opinion of Chinese art." Then eighty-seven years old, Pritzlaff was concerned about the future of his collection, the seed of which was planted in 1937 when he traveled to China and encountered the art dealer Wu. The latter had a knack for persuading descendants of Chinese nobles to part with their inherited treasures, including rare paintings and porcelains with imperial provenances. Chief among the collection were Chinese ancestral portraits, then a stepchild of Chinese art in which landscape paintings were ranked at the top of the artistic hierarchy.

In the early 1940s, changes in Chinese political tides, Wu's advancing age (he died around 1948), and impoverishment, caused Wu to send Pritzlaff a cache of paintings, which he hoped the collector would sell on his behalf. Instead, Pritzlaff held on to them, sending Wu as much money as he could.
Advertisement

By 1970 Pritzlaff was looking for ways to promote what he had, and he loaned some of his paintings to the Denver Art Museum. Negotiations for the transfer of the collection to that museum eventually came to naught. Enter Ross Perot, who in the mid-1980s was horse shopping with friends at Pritzlaff's ranch. There he was swept away by the Chinese collection, and after a return trip he purchased the majority of it with the intention of building a museum to house it. When that dream fell through, Pritzlaff became so irate that in 1987 he bought back his collection.

In 1990, following Pritzlaff's phone call, Stuart and a colleague traveled to the collector's adobe house in Sapello, New Mexico, which proved to be as idiosyncratic as its owner, who had designed it. For example, when he deemed the sunlight too harsh, Pritzlaff dug a hole in the floor and planted trees to form a natural screen, because he loathed shutters and curtains. Although the house was elegant, Stuart recalled that it had suffered from neglect and had holes in the roof. Paintings were installed in glass-fronted niches in the adobe walls on the exterior of the house under the shade of the verandah, while others were similarly installed in the interior or rolled up and placed in storage.

Stuart persevered, overcoming too many obstacles to recount here, and the collection eventually arrived at the Sackler Gallery where thirty-eight of Pritzlaffs ancestral portraits form the core of an exhibition entitled Worshiping the Ancestors: Chinese Commemorative Portraits. The exhibition has been made possible by a grant from Fidelity Investments through the Fidelity Foundation (which also donated funds to restore many of the works). The show not only includes ancestral portraits dating from 1451 to 1943, but also textiles, furniture, and other objects, many of them of the type that appear in the portraits.

Chinese rites of ancestor worship include offerings (among them food and incense) made to the deceased in the hope that the dead will bestow good fortune and prosperity on the living. These rites began in ancient times, but the incorporation of a likeness of the deceased dates from perhaps the Tang dynasty (618-907). The commissioning of nearly lifesized portraits of the type on view in this exhibition flourished during the Qing dynasty.

Much like Western sumptuary laws, the intricate rules of ancestor worship were strictly enforced. Those of highest rank were the first to be permitted to engage in this ritual, and it was not until the eighteenth century that commoners were allowed to participate. While the severely frontal, full-length ancestor portraits might at first seem formulaic, the depiction of the sitter's face is most individualistic. Since many of the portraits were commissioned after the sitter's death, they are most likely not accurate portrayals. By the late Ming dynasty separate portraits of husbands and wives were sometimes merged into one painting. In what is surely an ironic twist, these portraits, which were incorporated into the most private of rituals, are now permanently in the West and on exhibition for all to see.

COPYRIGHT 2001 Brant Publications, Inc.
COPYRIGHT 2001 Gale Group

密虫 2007-03-06 01:39

这个是什么时候画的?苏麻姑姑还挺年轻的。

不过这身行头……到底算什么品阶啊?晕…难道女官的朝服也那么缤纷?!

还以为是后宫……


竹林深处 2007-03-09 12:28
感觉那时候这种脸型和眉眼的人好多,看起来很犀利的感觉。

小糊涂 2007-03-10 22:11

大大啊……那个1644-1911????有没有弄错啊?这样的话活到哪个年头拉?

还是你打错了?




大白菜 2007-03-10 22:30
是这样的,祭祀像不一定就是死者生前画的,可能是后人画的,所以史密斯基金会标注的时间往往就是把整个清朝的时间段都算进去,此图画成的时间,最早在1644清朝建立,最晚在1911,清朝覆灭.

小糊涂 2007-03-11 12:38
受教了~

大火烧了毛毛虫 2007-03-12 22:58

苏麻啊~~~~

与我想像的大相径庭啊~~~


洗桐女史 2007-03-12 23:18
我已经给大家编辑过好几次帖子了,为啥大家都按照康熙王朝那样,喊她苏麻呢,苏麻喇是一个词。

东莪格格 2007-03-13 16:41

怎么可能是苏茉儿?

可笑!不说衣着、戴的首饰不可能成画中那样,光说年龄。

在她年轻时,还轮不到给她画像吧?

连孝庄也是在当上太后之后才有画像的,那张中年朝服像孝庄都老成那样了,她和苏茉尔是同龄人,

小苏的这张年轻画像是从何而来?

我认为这很可能是哪位皇帝的后妃像。不知名的。


东莪格格 2007-03-16 21:55

再说她的地位也不可能给她画像

太后一级的才有资格画像供子孙后世瞻仰。


洗桐女史 2007-03-17 13:07

请问出典何处?她抚养了允裪,难道不可以交由允裪供奉祭祀么?有并非供奉在宗庙,难道供奉其他地方也不行了?况且皇贵妃袱葬帝陵,就必然会给她们画像,即使生前没有,死后也会照着她的尸体来画的,哪里有只有太后才能画像之礼?

请给出出典。


东莪格格 2007-03-19 09:44
她抚养了允裪,难道不可以交由允裪供奉祭祀么?有并非供奉在宗庙,难道供奉其他地方也不行了?

-苏麻喇抚养允裪时已是多大年纪的老人了?重孙辈的允裪就是要把她的画像保留下来以供瞻仰,那也是为了保留一份念想,长久精神寄托用的,希望随时可以再看到老人慈祥的面容,仿佛就在身边,当然是画得越像越好,越真实越好,不可能把她画成像上的人那么年轻吧,难道作为晚辈的他还嫌弃苏麻喇人老了,画像不好看,叫画师想象着画个年轻漂亮的形象?

况且皇贵妃袱葬帝陵,就必然会给她们画像,即使生前没有,死后也会照着她的尸体来画的,哪里有只有太后才能画像之礼?

1、苏麻喇是皇贵妃吗?她当过吗?无论生前还是死后,她都没有。如果你认为她当过的话,请找出这一出处。

2、“皇贵妃袱葬帝陵”,用这个来类比苏麻喇,天啊,你不会认为苏麻喇是以皇帝嫔份的身份入葬皇陵的吧?那可真是大笑话了,她只是在丧礼制度上是以嫔的等级入葬皇陵,这是破例,是对她一生为皇家服务的嘉奖,以示皇恩浩荡罢了。



白丁 2007-03-23 16:32
给苏墨尔画像也不是没有可能,圣祖对她应该是相当敬重的。1、圣祖儿时曾和苏墨尔学习满文。2、把皇子交给她抚养说明圣祖对其的信任。3、苏墨尔死后一直和孝庄一起停灵于暂安奉殿内,直到雍正八年下葬。

洗桐女史 2007-03-23 19:42

我驳斥的是你所谓的那个时候只有皇太后才能画像的观点,请看清我的文意!

另,以苏麻喇姑的身份,难道你觉的她不配死后有人祭祀供奉她,难道她的主子能让她死后连口残羹冷炙都不配享用?你说的是何道理。

希望你给出出典,真伪不久一目了然了么?



大白菜 2007-05-06 03:45
很多朋友都因这位妇女的服饰怀疑她的身份,我可以补充一点,这位妇女也许史密斯基金会判断有误,但是有一点是错不了的:她是皇后或者皇太后的侍从命妇。

刚才又因此而查《清会典》看到,崇德元年定制:皇后侍从妇女,冠用金顶,上衔红宝石。这一点正合这位命妇的身份,乾隆朝服制多有改变,但皇后侍从命妇的服制没有改动。

而嫔的朝冠上缀东珠,吉冠缀碧[王亚][王么],妃朝冠上除东珠外,后面衔猫睛石,吉冠也是缀东珠,后缀青金石,皇贵妃,贵妃的冠上也都是东珠,后缀猫睛石,青金石等。皇后的冠上就更没有红宝石了。

这是《会典》《清史稿》都说得很明白的,大家再不要东猜西猜这人的服饰是嫔妃之类的了,她的冠顶说明了一切,她是侍妇。

大白菜 2007-05-06 03:47
引用
我认为这很可能是哪位皇帝的后妃像。不知名的。


东莪说的这一点完全没有可能,没有后妃的顶子是红宝石的,特此说明,以免有朋友被误导。

度花影 2007-05-06 19:12

我我我第一个感觉就是努尔哈赤的女装版。。。

伦森阿~~~


兆佳氏紫菱 2007-05-08 12:27
不会吧,一个宫女,衣服上也有龙………………

大白菜 2007-05-08 12:48
这龙四个爪,这不叫龙,叫蟒,别说侍妇穿了,太监还穿蟒服呢。

注意看第三十九楼。

牡丹花下 2007-05-10 07:36
呵呵 ,她怎么是穿成这样子的!

sushourulan 2007-05-23 14:21
恩~的确很精明的样子~眼神好犀利~

sjzgbj 2007-05-23 16:31

这样的衣服说实在的,就好像看到了一堆钱,再漂漂的美眉穿上了也不见得比这位传说中的苏麻喇姑漂亮多少。

不过那时的女人是不是都比较丰满呀?!


leiruo1 2007-06-01 17:45

还不错


YooHee 2007-08-21 13:25
蘇麻喇不會穿朝服吧....

☆婼曦ァ 2007-08-23 22:37
典仪制度好森严那~~~

Gungju 2007-08-26 04:00

這幅畫中的女士穿的是朝服呀~蘇麻拉姑雖然很得孝莊太后及康熙爺的尊重及信任,康熙爺甚至將允祹交蘇麻撫養,死後亦按嬪位辦理喪事。可是我相信姑姑在生前不大可能可以穿上朝服掛朝珠...看服飾似是一位王具勒的福晉吧。

我也不敢肯定。


Gungju 2007-08-26 04:08

乾隆朝時的婉嬪也能留畫,相信只是主位就可以吧~

不過若說是女官、宮人這些嘛...我相信能夠穿朝服留畫的機會不太大吧?


大白菜 2007-08-26 04:08

这个人无论是谁,的确是穿着朝服的侍妇,请看本贴第十楼和第三十九楼,《清会典》上对于服制的规定。这不是王贝勒福晋的冠服。

清会典本论坛提供下载。详情见版务资料区。




查看完整版本: [-- 经白菜查资料证实的苏麻喇姑画像 --] [-- top --]


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